32. Navigating the extended breastfeeding journey
Today's guest was Erin from Nursing Mamas! This conversation was so helpful for me as a mom who's still nursing at 19 months postpartum so I know this will be soooo helpful for you too! ✨
Erin is a virtual lactation educator and creator of Nursing Mamas. She combines her two Master's Degrees in Health and Family communication, lactation knowledge, and personal nursing experience to focus on the parent-toddler nursing relationship. 🤱
Through online courses and consults, she helps extended breastfeeding women who aren't ready to wean but are feeling overwhelmed by on-demand nursing and are ready to set breastfeeding boundaries so they can keep the bond without burnout.
She lives in Costa Mesa, CA with her husband Scott, daughter, Avery, and son, Luca, and is a veteran nursing mama of 4 ½ years.
Overview of this episode:
Her personal extended nursing journey
How to navigate extended nursing when you want another child
Setting boundaries for your nursing toddler
Pushing past the stigma of extended nursing and how to not feel alone in this journey
Connect with me, Erin ⤵️
Instagram: @erin.nursingmamas
Free Consult: Book Here!
Free Quiz: Take it now
Email: erin@nursingmamas.com
Don't forget to subscribe to the Birth Junkie Podcast for more empowering conversations and insights on all things birth-related.
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✨ Check out the transcript here! Navigating the extended breastfeeding journey
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Transcript:
I want you to get ready to embark on a transformative journey where there's no more suffering in silence, no more conforming to outdated societal norms. This is the podcast where we dare to crush those societal expectations and embrace the realities
It's time for us to rise above the shadows and ignite a movement towards a happier, more fulfilled world for every parent and child. If that's you and you're ready to challenge the status quo and embark on this incredible journey with me, then I'd like to welcome you to the Birth Junkie Podcast. All right, well, welcome back to the Birth Junkie podcast.
Today I am joined with Erin, and Erin is a virtual lactation educator and creator of Nursing Mamas. She combines her two master's degrees in health and family communication, lactation knowledge, and personal nursing experience to focus on the parent toddler nursing relationship through online courses and consults.
She helps extended breastfeeding women who aren't ready to wean, but are feeling overwhelmed by on demand nursing and are ready to set breastfeeding boundaries so they can keep the bond without the burnout. She is, she lives in Costa Mesa, California with her husband, Scott, daughter, Avery, and son, Luca, and is a veteran nursing mama of four and a half.
years. That is amazing. I love all of that. Thank you so much for joining me today. And I would love for us to just jump into your beautiful story. Well, thank you so much for having me. And oh my gosh, that's a mouthful. I always try to narrow it down. But I'm like, there's so much to say, put into a small bio.
Um, like it's a four and a half years worth of experience to try to shove in there. Um, Well, to start off, I had my first child in 2016, I knew I wanted to breastfeed, I took the courses, had a doula, and, um, had an unmedicated birth, one because I really just, my biggest fear was C sections, but, um, I just, the more I learned that, that, that The more in, you know, medications and other things, the harder breastfeeding is.
So I was like, ready for breastfeeding, I thought. And then, uh, it was really challenging. She couldn't latch well, and we just had a lot of struggles in the beginning. And overcoming that in the first couple months, once we got going, it was like, I'm hard to imagine stopping some of it, honestly, I thought was like a trauma response because it was like every moment of my life was make milk, make milk, you know, and so we, my first goal was six months and we hit that and then I was like, okay, well, it's just starting to get easier and so let's go for a year and we hit that and I remember talking to some people in the crying thinking like I had to quit because at this time, the recommendations were a year and so in my mind it was yeah.
I had to now stop. And someone just said, well, if you don't want to stop, don't stop. And so I just said, okay, well that works. And at that point I stopped pumping when I was away thinking, all right, well, I'll do that. And then my supply will dry up and we'll be done. Not knowing that your body can regulate and you can just nurse when you're with your child.
And that was the amazing moments of my nursing journey were about the next year or so where. We just nursed when we were together, and I wasn't engorged, and I didn't have the pump with me 24 7, and it was beautiful and empowering. I loved it. Um, when she turned two, we decided we wanted to try for another, and I nursed.
Part way through my, my pregnancy with my second until my milk dried up and part of it was denial on my part and not just be, I couldn't, I wasn't ready to be done, but also she was such a mama's girl that I knew if I brought this a new baby in and said, you can't have milk. This other kid gets all the milk, it was not going to be okay, it just would
bring the milk back and, um, that she seemed fine with that. And when the baby came, the baby brought the milk back. And funnily, funnily enough, she didn't remember initially how to latch. And she just would like. Put her mouth on me and like a fish, like a guppy, you know, and just lay there. And so I kind of thought at first, okay, well, maybe this really was the end.
And well, that's fine. We'll move on. But one night she figured it out and it was off to the races and I was tandem nursing, a three year old, three, yeah, three year old and a newborn. And it was a lot. Um, and so we did that for a while. I started figuring out I needed some boundaries around her nursing because she wanted it all the time and it wasn't manageable.
And so we started doing it at morning, nap, and bedtime. And always after, um, my second got it, you know, he got the, the milk first. And then, um, that went smoothly for a couple months. Until he threw me a curveball and decided to cold turkey, stop nursing at four months. And so very different experience. And um, just he's my, my picky eater still now.
And he's just like, no, I'm done. I'm not doing it. And so I ended up still nursing her three times a day and pumping for him four times a day while supplementing. And that was kind of the crazy cycle of, of life. And then come March 2020 and I had only been back to work eight weeks when everything shut down and I was home with these two kids.
With three naps that didn't line up, and pumping four times a day, nursing three times a day, co sleeping with the little one, and still trying to work from home, and that was just not manageable. Um, so I did that for eight weeks, and then stayed home, and would never imagine being a stay at home mom. It was not anything I, I planned for or wanted.
It was... Way harder than anything else, which at the time I was a college instructor and I went from teaching college to preschool and it was a lot. Um, and then the next six months or so my nursing journey started coming to an end. I, Weaned from the pump and, um, finished nursing for my son or, or pumping for him.
And that really reduced my supply. And at the end, my daughter was nearly four and a half, and we could have conversations about it. And she, um, was only nursing in the morning and night at that point, because she had dropped her nap. And it was only about three minutes each. And my right side dried up first, and then I'm left with my, just my left side for these few minutes, and we had conversations about it that, you know, do you want to just keep going until one day it's gone?
Or do you want to choose a day? And she ultimately chose a day. And, um, you know, I fully expected her to come back the next day and just be like, no, let's keep going because it was hard and we both had tears about it. And, but she was ready. And, um, what I didn't know to come was the deep grief that comes with weaning.
And again, this was during COVID and I felt very, very alone and didn't know what to do and where to go. And ultimately that grief went into my business. I created Nursing Mom as I got certified as a lactation educator to help others because I didn't know what to do with all this knowledge and experience.
And so that's ultimately what led me here to help other extended nursers who it can be very isolating and alone and I don't want people to feel, feel that way. Wow. I mean, that is just amazing. There's so many things that I want to come back to. Yeah. Because I want to know like with your first child, what even want, like what made you want to nurse so badly that first time around?
You know, I think like a lot of us, I was told breath is best and it is such now knowing in hindsight, a terrible thing to tell a mom and that the pressure to put on a mom. Um, but also, I mean. It just, yeah, the nutritional benefits and everything I was told, right, like the health benefits to me and to her and why wouldn't you do it and it's, it's free, right?
Like all of these things were told that are not really true, um, wholly to get us to persuade us to do this thing. The thing that kept me going was I had a major oversupply and I did not know how to not to, I didn't know how to stop. Actually, probably made it worse in the cycle because, you know, the more you pump or the more you nurse, the more milk you make.
And so I was so engorged in the beginning. And so I would pump with a hospital grade pump and it was just making my supply worse. And so it was this deep cycle that I just couldn't get out of initially. And one that I think a lot of us. moms find ourselves in because we're so worried about not making milk that we end up making too much milk because we see those Pinterest pictures with the deep freezer stash and really that's not normal Right, but we have this fear of not being enough because we're not making enough and so we overcompensate Yeah.
Yeah, that's so true. And I love that. I love that it brought you into this, into this journey of breastfeeding and gaining all this knowledge. So what is one way that you help women on their breastfeeding journey? Okay. So when I, when I first started, like most, I started in prenatal education, but the people I kept gravitating toward were the moms who.
Or like I was doing interviews like in Instagram and interviews with people and the people I gravitated to where the other fellow extended our service because it was a very different experience and story, and I didn't understand people who would be like, I'm ready to be done at like six months, and I.
It's not my judgment. It's like, if you're ready to be done, I'm going to help you. But I didn't understand that, like, but you're just like, I don't get it. Maybe it's such a powerful tool for me. And so that really started making me think of the extended nurses. And so now today. I help women who are nursing over a year navigate toddler nursing and weaning because it is a different beat, um, especially if you have a strong willed child who likes to dictate where to nurse, when to nurse, how they want to, you know, which side and pulling your shirt down and all of those things that don't happen in the first year.
And. It's, it's not talked about and it's not supported. It's just sort of like, woohoo, you made it to a year. Keep going or stop if you want, but the, how the, how it's missing. And so I'm. My goal is to fill that void and help people navigate that. I love that. And I actually am kind of in your realm right now.
My son is, I want to say he's 19 months right now and he's still nurses, not all day long or anything. It's mostly like bedtimes, but sometimes it, you're right. It is different. He's the one that I've nursed the longest so far and. We'll be out in public and he'll like, rip my shirt down and like he's aggressive about it.
Yeah. And I was not expecting that. And he'll get so mad if I tell him, no, not right now. Or, you know, um, yeah. And it's like, I, I do not feel prepared for that. And like, there's other things he does, like the. Then he'll like nipple twiddle on the other side and he's rough and I'm like, Oh my gosh, no, let's be nice.
And I'm like, how do I navigate this? So in that instance, what do you suggest and biting too? I mean, he doesn't do that anymore, but like, if someone were struggling with that, how would you approach those situations? Yeah, you're this is it. These are these are the things that happen overnight. It seems like like where did my cute little infant go?
And what I say is you have to start to Reframe nursing from that one year of on demand nursing to realizing now you have a demanding toddler who is nursing and you no longer have to do on demand nursing. Obviously, like it doesn't magically switch at 12 months. There's a gradual change here, even at 19 months, right?
That's still a young toddler. But when you start seeing these behaviors of them demanding it like they are in full control. of this relationship and you're feeling kind of like you're, it's not working for you anymore. That's the time to start setting nursing boundaries and nursing boundaries.
Um, that being said, they are often the first step in the weaning process, even if that weaning process is still two years away, that it means you're taking control, I liken it to a partner dance, that for a year or longer, your child has been in the lead of this relationship. And when you, when you start to try to become the lead.
It's going to be an awkward dance for a while, and because they're going to try to keep being, you know, in charge, and you can start to expect some upsets, and that's the thing that people struggle with too, because most of the time when I talk to an extended nurse, they're into gentle, gentle parenting, right, and they misunderstand gentle parenting to mean permissive parenting, and meaning if their child cries, They're not comfortable with that.
And of course, if there's an infant crying or upset, you nurse them. But if you are giving into your child's behavior as a toddler, it's actually going to reinforce that behavior. So if you say no, don't do that. But then they get upset. So you nurse, it's just teaching them that no, doesn't mean. So the first thing is trying to be prepared mentally for your child to be a little upset.
Um, And it's really important that they learn that they can still be comforted by you in other ways besides the boob and that you will still be there when they're upset, even if the boob isn't. Um, so that's the first thing is it's just a mental, a mindset shift and being prepared. The second thing is. I always suggest bringing play into boundary setting.
When we think of boundary setting, it's this firm thing, right? Like we, we're putting my foot down because that's how we were raised. And so anytime you think that, or there has to be some sort of punishment, reverse out of it and think what is the opposite, opposite of this? So if the opposite is Let's say they're twiddling, right?
And you want to get mad, how can you take that energy and make it playful? And a lot of times the play can come outside of the nursing time. So it's harder in the moment to talk about it, right? Because... They're, they're just in the middle of their nursing session and they're going to do their thing. So talking about it outside of the nursing session or, or saying like, you know, I really, that, that hurts.
That hurts me. And they lack empathy, like developmentally. So if they don't care, you know, that's Don't take it personal, but you can say, how about you play with this toy and let them pick a toy and give them options and practice it. Say like, let's pretend to nurse and I know you want to do this, like acknowledge their feelings, right?
And say, but we're going to change this behavior now. And another thing that I see a lot is like wanting to. Like stop the nursing session, which is okay to do sometimes. Right. Um, I used to do that if she hit me and I would say, I don't share my body with people who hit me. We can nurse later. And so if your child is doing something to your body that you don't like, it's a perfectly fine time to teach them that that is not okay.
You don't have to deal with it. But it also doesn't necessarily mean you have to wean either. Right. No, I love that. And I think you explained it beautifully. Like, and I could picture exactly how you said it's like a dance and yeah, you know, the taking the lead like that is a perfect analogy. I love that so much.
Thank you for that. Um, you're welcome. That that makes it feel easier for me going forward. And, um, so one other thing that, like, maybe other people might have issue with is other people. So other people saying you're still nursing. You should wean or, you know, something to that effect and almost like shaming you for for nursing past a year because in our country, this isn't considered quote unquote normal.
So like, what, what do you suggest in that situation? Yeah, you know, it's I don't know if it's gotten a little bit better, one, just because my world is extended nurses. So I think COVID actually helped a lot because there are, I feel like, well, women who had the luxury of staying home for work, um, they don't know the experience of having to leave their child to nurse.
And so I do think that there are a lot more extended nursers because of that. Um, but, um, It doesn't mean the rest of society is caught up. And so when it's a stranger on the street, when it, you know, it depends on the person who it is. The people it's going to be hardest with are the people you're closest to.
And for example, I just had a client call the other day, and we really resonated with each other because she has a four year old. They're at the end stages of it. And, um, she's getting a lot of pressure from her, her partner to wean that it's just not okay in their eyes like this kid is too old. And, um, this is probably their last child and the child is feeling the pressure too.
And what happens in those moments when you're feeling pressure, they feel it. And they're going to cling to it more. So it actually makes it harder. Those are not the best times to weep. Because it's just counterintuitive. It's counterproductive, um, in those moments. And what often happens that I see, and I did myself, a term I kind of coined as closet nursing, is a lot of times you just stop talking about it.
And when you stop talking about it, it becomes more isolating, and the struggle gets harder because when you are, they are hitting you or whatever else, you don't feel like you have anyone to go to because A, no one, you know, if they haven't done extended nursing, understand, and they just tell you to weep.
And you're like, easier said than done, right? If, if I couldn't do this without feeling like an abusive relationship, maybe I would. Right. And so what I suggest is it's really up to each mom and what you're comfortable with. Some moms don't care. Right. And it's. That's on them. I'm going to nurse wear and when I want and that is amazing for some of us.
Um, for me included, I was always very, even when she was little. Not very comfortable nursing in public because I'm large chested and I always felt like I couldn't like very like stay covered It was just like the boob was out, you know So for me, it was always more of a private thing and it became really our time together and it was really special.
So If people say things, um, a, a phrase I have that can work is just saying like, you know, you could, you may be right. Maybe extended nursing wasn't right for you, but it is for us and you can't really argue much with that. Um. And then, well, people may want to argue, but you know, you don't have to take the bait on it.
Um, and just, just trust your mom instinct and know that what you're doing is normal and healthy and it's not harming your child. And it's, it's only harmful if you are burnt out and struggling because if you are struggling and resentful, resentful nursing. Um, then that's going to be more harmful to your relationship than weaning.
Right. That makes sense. And so, gosh, you've given so many amazing nuggets in there. Um, but I do want to come back to like the partner aspect. So in your eyes, how do you feel like a partner could best support, you know, the mom and the child in this extended nursing journey? Yeah, I think the biggest thing, well, one is just kind of keep the mouth shut, and they, they may think they're too old, whatever the age is, one year, three years, it's not up to them.
It's it's not their body and it really is between the two of you like your child and you and that relationship is going to look different with every child. Um, and it's again also easier said than done to wean and adding that pressure to do so. It doesn't help at all. And so I would actually really encourage partners to say, I'm proud of you.
Like, this is amazing. You thank, thank you. Thank you for doing so much for our child. And, um, I think that can go a long way, especially on a hard day and sometimes just asking, what can I do? Because I do think that a lot of partners want to help. They feel helpless. Because they see their partner struggling.
And so they suggest things, right? Like we provide advice because they think that's helpful. And the only thing, the option they know is to wean. But other options can be, Can I make you a snack? Can, what can I, can I fold the laundry? Why don't, you had a rough bedtime. Go watch some TV. I'll do the dishes, right?
Like picking up the slack in other ways so that we can get the downtime is so valuable. I love that. That is beautiful. Those are great suggestions. And I know, so personally, I always go back and forth with weaning. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, because this is our last baby. I'm like, okay, I want to cherish this for as long as it takes, you know, whenever he wants to be done.
But then, you know, I have moments where I'm like frustrated and I'm like, I just want my body back. I'm so touched out. You know, I go back and forth on it, but you know, how do you Suggest to your clients how to manage those feelings because I feel like more people feel that kind of way Than we actually put out there.
It's either we see like Someone's gung ho completely about it or they're like totally against it. I hardly ever see the in between that way Yeah, what you're describing is something I call the emotional cycle of the extended breastfeeding mom. And it starts in love and you love it and you're so empowered by it.
But then it starts to slowly tip over into burnout and maybe they're a little too demanding. Maybe their daycare's closed, they're sick. You are tired because they're cluster feeding at night again. Most of us are co sleeping at this point and like, you're just getting burnt out. And so that's getting into the, the burnout resentment phase.
And if you stay in there too long, because you don't know how to get back out of it, you get into burnout and, um, like the, the ready to wean moment where you say I'm done. Right. And that's usually when people come to me. And they, because they try to cold turkey wean, or say no when they're not usually used to saying no, and they get the upset and they don't know what to do.
And so then they start leaning back and thinking, getting nostalgic, and saying, This is my last baby, right? Or am I really ready to be done? Think of all the amazing times. Like, it's such a good tool to have when they're sick and you start thinking of the good stuff and you start maybe getting a little guilty because, but they love it so much.
I'm taking this thing away. And so then you kind of convince yourself to get back into the love phase of the cycle and do it all over again. And. It can go on multiple times in one day, honestly, which is the roller coaster. So instead of the, well, the cycle happens, but it's more about acknowledging where you are and trying to get out of it sooner.
And going back to the beginning of our conversation, that's where boundaries come in. Like, if you're starting to feel that burnout, instead of telling yourself, maybe it means it's time to wean, it usually means. I need to set some sort of boundary that or there is a boundary that's being crossed that I need to assess and that can help you if your goal is child led weaning, it can help you get there.
Um, because it's an on demand nursing a toddler for years is unmanageable, it's unsustainable and it's not, it's not fair to us to give ourselves in that way for so long. Um, and I another thing that I distinguish between is parent led weaning and parent led breastfeeding, and there's a distinction there like you can guide how this journey is going to look without getting making your child get to the finish line before they're ready.
I love that. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. So, you know, in your journey, have you implemented these tips and that's kind of where you came about how you support other moms? Um, a little bit. Yeah, definitely that first moment of, I was in that cycle, the emotional cycle, and I remember so vividly being in the doorway of my bedroom looking down at my little dictator, you know, my three year old dictator, and just saying, that's it.
You, you, and I was like making it up as I went, but I was, which I don't recommend, but I said like, you get it three times a day, morning, um, nap time and bedtime. And at least for my child, my first, my second's a different story, but she's my rule follower. And so having that guideline. Really helped her. Um, and she just said, Okay, and it was good.
And so what we need to remember about toddlers is that we can't just tell them what they can't do. We have to tell them what they can do. We focus on saying no, not right now. And we need to focus on when can they Because if we try to push them off and say later, later, later, they don't understand the concept of time and they're going to nag the heck out of you.
Is it time yet? Is it time yet? Is it later yet? Like they don't know when later is. They think it's like a distinct time. And so that does come from my personal experience, but a lot of this is also like what I've had to learn as a parent of toddlers generally and just taking that information and applying it to the breastfeeding context.
That's beautiful. Yeah. And so it's a lot of learning from amazing other professionals. I have very strong willed children. And so yeah, parenting coaches that have helped me along the way and then building off of that. And how can we apply this to, to this unique relationship? That's great. And it sounds like to me, like you take a unique approach to everybody you work with.
I have to. And that, that is, you know, that all of lactation is really like that, but it is, it's going to be very different with you with a 19 month old versus talking with someone with a three or four year old, because the developmental understanding of those children is going to be different. Their, their diets are different.
They're, you know, everything about it is going to change. Yeah, and I think it's important to remember, like, even if, say, I have my 19 month old and this other lady, you know, in Alaska has a 19 month old, like, our journeys and everything are going to be so different, and there's not one size fits all. So what works for me might be horrible for her.
Yes. So, yeah, I think that's great. And so, when you were in your journey, is there anything that you wish you could have done differently? Like, and I don't ask this, like, because I, you know, obviously we don't have a time machine. So, I ask this so in case somebody's going through a similar journey, and this might be helpful for them to try or look into.
So, if there were anything that you could do a redo on, what would that be? Or would there be anything? Yeah. Yeah, no, I love this question. And it's not a coming out of a regret, please. You know, it's more like you said, in hindsight, and what I've learned since what I would have done different. And I really would have done more to celebrate the end.
Because like I said, it was an intense grieving process. And that's something I, I see that in my clients. I know when they're someone's really at the end because they cry. And when someone comes to me like angry, that's not they're not there yet and someone at the end is, it's a deep, deep grief of this part of your parenting, either parenting journey or with at least with this child is coming to an end.
And, um, I didn't know how to celebrate it. I didn't know how to commemorate it. And I've since learned how to do that and and recommend things so I, and again, I was in COVID There was a lot of things that were weird then, but I would have at least had my husband come in and take a picture of our last nursing session, or, you know, there I've seen beautiful photo shoots.
Uh, if you love, like want more professional pictures to be taken, uh, maybe not the last session, but getting near there, just having a party with a cake, it could be a boob cake, you know, that's amazing. I, I wish I had known about breast milk, uh, Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. I would have done that and saved some milk, you know, and I don't anymore.
I don't have anything Um what I did do actually just a couple months ago here's gonna be upside down is I got a tattoo To commemorate it and this is something that i've literally thought of for two years and it was to the point where my my Arm felt like it was missing something and it's obviously those of you can't see it.
It's a dandelion with the seeds flying away, but I have two birds representing my kids, but I wanted something for my nursing experience and the dandelion kind of looks like a boob. You know, it looks like it has a nipple. And so it just is for me. And so however you want to commemorate that, think of it ahead of time.
Thank you. Even months out years out, like, how do you want the end to look? And I think that would have made it easier to transition, um, out of it. Wow. I love that. I'm planning the end of my journey now. I never even thought about that, but you're right. I feel like, you know, connecting some kind of positive experience to that end of the journey, even though it might feel so emotional, so hard, especially if it's your last baby and you know, like you're not going to do this again.
I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. That's beautiful. Yeah, of course. So if somebody were to want to work with you or just, you know, come into contact with you, what would be the best way for somebody to do that? So I'm on Instagram at erin. nursingmamas. So that's one way you will please DM me, let me know where you found me and I do consults and I have online courses depending on where you are in your journey.
And, um, A resource I have to help you figure out where you are in your journey is a quiz. A free, it's like two minutes and you can go to nursingmamas. com forward slash quiz to try that out and that will help you figure out where you're at and so whether you are coming up on a year and you are extended nursing curious.
or, um, you're in the trenches or you're loving it or you're at the end, it will tell you where you are. And then also more importantly, what's to come and some tips to kind of navigate where, where you're going. Um, so I, I encourage everyone to try that just to get a sense of, you know, um, how to make this more manageable because it can be hard to do alone.
Definitely. And obviously I'm going to drop all of those links down below the episode, but this conversation has honestly been so nourishing for me. I so appreciate you making the time to come and chat with me today. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. All right. I will chat with you soon.
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